beachlass | (no subject)

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I don't know whether to laugh, or bang my head against the wall.

"Thanks largely to the feminist and gay and lesbian movements, few of us can now hold to rigid notions of gender. We have not only been challenged to stretch the boundaries of traditional gender roles, but many of us have discovered new, often unexpected possibilities. For example, many women report the delight of learning how to bring themselves to orgasm, thus shattering the myth of the frigid, nonorgasmic female dependent on the male for sexual climax..." Marvin Ellison

I mean, I know, and the whole 70's thing with circles and mirror and speculum... and the doctors who used to 'manipulate' 'hysterical' women to 'paroxysm' for relief... but are we really so hopeless that we couldn't figure out how to get ourselves off? Is it really a "new and unexpected possibility"?

But... how much fanfic does this remind you of: "patriarchal sex depends on a dynamic of conquest and surrender, of winning control over or of being placed under someone else's control. Opposites attract. Inequality is sexy.

Kakashi, Colonel Mustang.... I'm looking at you.

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And here I thought blurred gender roles were responsible for more stay at home dads, but clearly, I was wrong. >.>

No, apparently once the gender roles were blurred, we all received road maps and driving instructions for our clits.

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Yes, yes and yes.

I actually laughed out loud and startled the girl when I read this part of the article. Oh, yeah... now that we've let go of gender??? You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

I'm already quoting you on the "it wasn't sex, 'cause I didn't stick my dick in" penetrative thing... but I might steal this post too... nothing like cobbling your paper together from your friends' conversations. I mean, affirming the authority of a diversity of experiences.

Yes, I think it's a good distinction between what women are doing beneath the blankets and what women are talking about... or what men are writing about women.

And.. yes, a difference between bdsm and patriarchal sex... but the quote made me think of all the teacher/student stories. Kakashi/Sakura or Kakashi/Sasuke... where the power differential is an unchallenged part of the sexual thrill. Especially when they are written as adult/teen, experienced/inexperienced, top/bottom... I think that old and crappy cultural scripts are being played out.

I love you.
Quote away - after all, I get direct benefits from you writing your papers!

I guess the difference between unpracticed fantasy bdsm and more experienced bdsm is just how much negotiation and intentionality there is within sex/power roles that are enacted within the actual bdsm community. Which is a huge difference from real life situations in which differences in power are NOT negotiated, and, as much as they are re-imaged into fantasy *pleasure*, there is a very real abuse of position that makes me sad and uncomfortable.

Remember way back when I took my first Philosophy of Feminism course (it was probably the first year I knew you) -- it was taught by a man who was so uncomfortable teaching it that he just taught of about shitty things that men in politics had said about feminists - and then he felt so guilty about that, that we all got 90's in the course... (I got 99%, since I was ~~more intimidating~~ smarter than the others

See - I didn't ever realize it was that simple.
Find your clit = no gender role rigidity

Huh. Guess all of the stress that M. faced when he transition from being female to male was just a throw-back to before the sexual revolution.

Why is it that folks still insist on equating/conflating gender with sex/sexual orientation????

ps - are you saying that power-play/bdsm = patriarchal sex??? Cause ... um... I'm not workin' for the man when I write... or when I play...

*love to you*

No, I'm saying they're not the same. I'm just not saying it very well. You and nezuko seem to be a little more articulate than I am today.

Plus... I referred to your icon in my last paper.

Argh! Marvin... Marvin... Marvin...
1. I do not believe that people have, in fact, been able to let go of rigid notions of gender -- Having been with my long-time partner during his female to male transition, I can certainly attest to the fact that there are LOTS of rigid gender role clingers out there.
2. Gender does NOT = sex/sexual orientation.
3. I believe the shattering was of the notion that it was only penile penetrative sex that could provide sexual 'fulfillment' for women -- but even that is/was a very narrowly held western notion.
4. I know that 'touching oneself' has been such a negatively disciplined thing that my mother (and many of her generation) did not have words to describe body parts,or menstruation, let alone masturbation. She would not even use tampons, she was so dis-located from her body. I think that the notion of being able to be proud/comfortable enough to touch yourself, to bring yourself pleasure has actually been very revolutionary - even if it doesn't seem like it right now. But I also think that it is more about making space within societal discourse for the discussion of masturbation that was revolutionary (one can only hope that *we* have always had the *ability* to find our clits)
5. There is a huge difference between patriarchal sex and sex that involves power-play/ bdsm negotiations... or at least there *should* be...

(Great questions/reaction inspiring quote, by the way)

So - sorry about the double-post -- I experienced some technical difficulties, which have resulted in some non-linear postings...

Reader discretion should probably be advised.

awww...but mustang is so sexy ;D

i think that there must be a lot of cultural stereotypes that play out in fanfic, though i can't for the life of me think of any at the moment...too tired...must sleep...

but...

ummm...i can't really see how masturbation is a "new and unexpected possibility" either, it certainly shouldn't be for anyone born in the last fifty years or so...

brain hurts, kitty no make sense, off to bed now...*zzzz*

Mustang is so sexy. If you've got many hours of you life to devote to him and Ed, I've got an author and a long multi-chapter story to recommend

rainjoyous

The Kipnis book made me think of fanfiction when she wrote about the associations between vulnerability and open/receptive orifices. I've seen quite a bit of careless seme/uke drivel that seems to project some of the worst gender or top/bottom stereotypes. Not to mention some really bad sex writing.

..hmmm...maybe distinctions between intentionally transgressive writing and unconscious cultural script following?

mustang rates as one of my top five bishies in fandom for sure! and do i have time?!!?! for long multi-chappie roy x ed?!?!? i'll make time dammit....

mmm...there are a lot of careless seme/uke stereotypes floating around fandom...is it just that many of those writers are young and inexpereinced and basing their ideas off of the standard put forth by many popular doujinshi and/or the fanfics that they love?

even in male/female relationships the 'dynamic' between the sexes is usually pretty fluid...why would male/male relationships be any different

(and why must one man be the 'woman'? to give a total tmi example *sounds warning alarm*...i'm pretty dominant in bed....does that make me manly? is my boy therefore more female than i am? in the fanfic world do i rank as a seme?!?!?! if you were to judge me by the standard, hells no i wouldn't...i guess it bothers me when people expect that the stereotypes are true, instead of exploring the individualality of the character. just because someone 'bottoms' doesn't mean they have to check every box on the uke stereotype checklist... )

i'll totally lost my point....blathering again, pointless....*sighs* but hey, thanks for the fic tip and the stimulating topics, even if i lose at them! :)

I don't think you are losing at them at all!

I really do think that some of the oh-so-scripted fanfic is written by folks who are either not very personally experienced, or are just sticking to canon/scripted sex. Which is too bad.

I used to have huge arguments with folks about whether I was femme or butch... as if a label could ever fit me well ;) And the whole idea of needing to be either top or bottom has never suited me all that well either... but the freedom to have sexuality and sexual expression be as fluid as fits is so important. Whether you are queer or straight or choose to identify in whatever way suits the moment... People seem to consistently need the grounding points of what they have been taught (to accept or rebel against), which in turn further scripts the interactions.

*sigh*

mmm...canon/scripted sex just sort of breeds...i'm always jonesing for something a little different, for a deeper understanding of how that particular author thinks that character would act in such a intimate setting, not just the "he's bottom so i add his name here and he's top so his name goes here..." scripty poo...just...ugh

and i love how every sexual situation is the same....(and yes, i'm probably guilty of this in my own fic, as i've whined about to beachlass, but i am trying...)

and i totally agree, sexuality and sexual expressions do need to be fluid! anyone with any sort of experience at all should (in theroy) understand that

i still subscribe to kakairu (even though i rarely read it anymore), and one of the posters there is male (admitedly unusual) who said just wrote iruka as if he was the same as the his girlfriend....and i think female authors do the same, unable to understand, personally, homosexual 'relations' (for lack of a better term :P ) they find it easier to make the connection by making one of the men a "woman with a penis."

i'm slightly amused, thinking about it, that most of the yuri i've read has far less of the femme/butch stereotype than yaoi has of the seme/uke...i wonder why that it

I think that the lesbian/queer female community has done very different work around gender identification in the past ten years than the gay/queer male community has. With the rise of transgendered communities, along with the changing (broadening) roles women have held within mainstream society, and the changing nature of sexual discourse, the labels within the queer (women's) community have changed pretty radically. The confluence of queer, trans, polyamourous and bdsm communities, when further combined with a penchant for processing has created a situation in which it feels like the butch/femme dichotomy has been pushed over into a corner.
Sometimes I miss it like the guilty pleasure that comes from dressing up in ueber-femme clothing...

I think that the latent socio-normative roles for men have not yet undergone an equal amount of change.

Yikes. My brain seems to be stuck on theory mode.

The scripts for manly-ness have not been stomped on as much as the scripts for womanly-ness. And so, in order for yaoi to be 'okay' people regress to socially defined gendered roles.

Stupid society.

I think you'll like her stuff... here's the memory entry with the chapter links..

http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?user=rainjoyous&keyword=Fanfic+%5E%5E%3B&filter=all

And she writes them quite fluidly and just... mmmph. Really.

And yeah, I think one of the major factors in fanfic is the youth and inexperience of the authors. I think it's fascinating (and occasionally depressing) the way that things spread virally through the fan communities; and the cultural patterns that emerge.

Such as... True Love = Penetration

Or the Sakuras who get their first kiss and have orgasmic intercourse all within 5 minutes.

*hugs for the linky* i'm totally adding it to the pile (but tonight i work on neji/kiba..eventually...)

i'm glad for the rec because i stopped reading a lot of roy/ed because it was just....too...hmmm...is saying that so much of it's infected with the fandom!sex virus rude? anyway, i trust you not to lead me astray!

ah youth and and inexperience...such a tricky thing...because it drives me a little crazy but, i really love them for the fact that they are trying. that they are doing something creative with their brains (even if it more scripted than anything, because most of them learn eventually)

but yeah, someone needs to make a list of 'tru!sex facts for fandom writers' ...except that that might take all the fun out of it :)

are you saying that true love =/= penetration!?!?!?!!? my world view...

dood, the first time a guy tried to french kiss me i was all like "why in the hell are you licking me?!?!" *dies* and he wanted to date me because i read romance novels and therefore must be knowledgeable....*snorts*

welcome to kitty's power hour of sharing good fun!

and that sounds arrogant, the thing about young writers. it's not meant to be. i'm still totally inexperienced as a writer (despite my age) and i struggle too. i look back at my first fics and want to crawl in the hole of shame.

i think writing in general, whatever your age, is or should be a growth experience. even if it's only getting better at writing smut!

you know you love it! :)

I don't think it sounds arrogant, I think it's honest and descriptive, as well as kind of 'meeting them where they are at'.

Getting better at writing smut is an admirable goal.

Kiba and Neji are willing to help, I hope?

oh they are, they so are....

i'm trying this amazing concept! it's called working on a fic for multiple days instead of writing and posting in one go. tonight may just be the night the current ficcie is finished!!

obstacles is being obstinant :P so the current ficcie it's just a 3000+ word smut fic but hey, it's fun :)

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