Because intelligent discussion is one of the best weapons against idiocy

[beachlass]

I've said it in a comments thread, so I'll find the courage to say it in my own journal.

I'm assuming the Warriors of Innocence instigated account and comm deletions are hitting some people that are posting unhurtful things, and have trigger words in their interests, and I'm certainly, in no way at all trying to align myself with unthinking censorship, or the like.

But.

I have a soft spot in my heart for a couple of pairings that have a bunch of shota/underage stuff posted about them. To say that it's fictional and causes no harm and that I don't have to look at it is fine up to a point. But there's some stuff out there - not a whole lot, but some - that really seems to be child pornography. There's pictures of Sasuke and Kakashi in our fandom that make me remember vividly what it was like to be molested as a child. Setting aside the harm it does to me - because I know that scanning copycock or steelandsparks might bring up something that will upset me, and I could just completely stop going to those comms (and I'm damn careful about what I open up) - setting that aside...

I still worry about what's going on when someone creates sexually explicit imagery or writing about a child and an adult. I worry about who is in the communities looking for that. And today, I'm not entirely comfortable about my own silence when I've seen that kind of stuff. Maybe I need to have some more courage about naming my discomfort to authors and creators, rather than silently turning my back and not mentioning it. Making nice. What's the cost? What, and who, have we been tolerating in communities?

Comments

[eshala.livejournal.com]

Well, my love
You already know how I feel about it.
It is so hard to figure out ways to speak out against things without sounding ... not like us...
But. The great thing about being fabulous, intelligent, passionate women in our 30's is that we feel the need to speak out. In different ways than when we were fabulous, intelligent, passionate women in our 20's, or our teens, or than we will be when we are in our 40's and beyond - but speak out we have, and do and will in the future. Because not speaking out has too huge a cost.
Remember back in 1st year University, when we met - I had a huge Silence = Complicity poster on my wall. While I know that mine is not the only opinion that is valid... I do feel the need to figure out ways to express how hurtful I feel some things are.
Especially when it comes to child abuse.
Consent is a huge thing.
Those of us who didn't have the choice when we were kids carry that weight with us. Over and over and over again. And while we may never be able to stop child abuse form happening, I certainly feel fine about speaking out against the glorification of adult/child sexual interactions -- cause even when it's 'just fantasy', it's still turning someone on... normalizing it and make it easier for it to keep happening. If I don't speak out, then I am saying it is okay.
And it's not.
Thank you for being amazing, and lovely and out-spoken. It's certainly part of why I love you so much.

[beachlass.livejournal.com]

Thanks hon.

[scribblesitm.livejournal.com]

blah i typed a long reply and then rethought cause I was going on and on.

You're right. A lot of stuff is very high up on the creep factor. Some of the pairings that get written are creapy in many fandoms and sick sick people get off on that.

With fandom though we also have a lot of very immature people who don't get it yet. They don't realize the eww factor of age differences like that.

But it's hard to explain the difference, but like I wrote a story where there is a 'relationship' between a child and his father, but I treated it like the sick horrible thing it was.

but people are just over reacting now to LJ getting rid of a few communities ...

blah - I'm babbling, but i wanted to say i agree with you. When I started a com we started with a disagreement with me and another mod about allowing that stuff -- it was non negotiable to me. It isn't. And yeah I came off as the close minded person, but *shrug* oh well.

Sorry for this being long and incoherant.

[beachlass.livejournal.com]

It can be hard to explain, but when presented with it, I find such a clear distinction between "written by someone too immature to catch the implications" and "written by someone who is dwelling in horrifying detail on pre-pubescent bodies".

And yes, I've read stories that are, well, maybe witnessing is the right word... witnessing to the pain and horror in non-consensual sex/sexual violence. And stories in which there is an age difference, and it's thoughtfully written.

(And your response isn't long and incoherent at all.)

[crazy-toffee.livejournal.com]

But there's some stuff out there - not a whole lot, but some - that really seems to be child pornography.

Though the suppression of freedom of speech - as a rule - does irk me considerably, what you say has also weighs heavily on my mind. I find shota and incest hard to tolerate, and the few times I have taken up such topics (as a challenge, usually) they have been an ordeal to write out. I have always ended up clearly advocating against it, which is fine with me. But this is just my personal standing. I can't go as far as to stay that all shota fans are perverted paedophiles, but some of what their write does ring of... just that. I can't, for the life of me, think of a way of weeding out those who are just in it for the story, from those who are in it for the kicks, and those who are in it in reality.

I worry about who is in the communities looking for that. And today, I'm not entirely comfortable about my own silence when I've seen that kind of stuff.

... thinking about the whole issue of what is objectionable in reality and in fiction, and why, tends to tie me up into knots. I guess, what I'm trying to say, is that I can see your point and, in fact, I agree with it. I hate what LJ is doing, but not because of the idea, simply because they are doing it sloppily.

*huggles* I loved reading your take on this.

[beachlass.livejournal.com]

There's definitely some grey in this discussion. Varying shades of it, some all swirling around fog-like making clarity a rare commodity. Because, no, clearly not everyone who has ever read or written shota is actually condoning, never mind committing child abuse. Actually, one of the things I'm reminded of discussion in feminist circles in the 90's about S&M and power and the appeal, for some survivors in power games in sex that were safe and controlled.

And yet.

I think it's important to hold onto the 'And yet'... to continue to keep our eyes open and our minds engaged, and listen when our guts say "Oh, fuck. This isn't cool, this isn't just harmless fantasy."

After posting this I did hop over to a list of deleted accounts. After the outraged fan postings I'd seen today I was surprised to find tt wasn't a list of lj users with obviously fannish names. There were some fucking creepy sigs there. I wondered how many people that have been posting "save us from this" have actually read the account names.

I've rarely ended up on the side of freedom of speech - too often been in debates where it's been thrown out as a defense for really damaging behaviour. In Canada, it's certainly not an absolute right - it has recognized limits - usually determined case by case - and the most common restrictions would be child pornography and hate crimes (hate speech?). I think rather than absolutes, we're looking for thoughtful and open minded balance - looking not to protect against offense, but against actual harm.

[crazy-toffee.livejournal.com]

I was surprised to find tt wasn't a list of lj users with obviously fannish names. There were some fucking creepy sigs there.

Actually, I did the same thing, and ended up with pretty much the same feeling. I get the impression though - from viewing the fan uproar - that the anger is mostly directed at the deletion of certain comms, rather than particular users. There are some recognised harmless people (and RPGers, lolz) who got their accounts suspended, but as for individuals, it seems to be that most of what was hashed out, was hashed out with good reason.

I'm still not so sure about the comms. There, I found many more cases of comms that were purely fandom/fiction related, and that does bother me. Though we usually stretch the limits of what is acceptable in comms, it would have been better to contact the mods about those very limits, rather than punish a whole group, with no real in-depth analysis of the actual nature of the community.

[thursday-kat.livejournal.com]

well, for my two cents, shota's never really been my thing. it's not so much the age difference (I know people who are together who have quite an age gap) but definately the non-consent thing. underage non-con is just...squicky and too deviant even for my own deviant mind. because i always feel that, no matter how much an author tries to make it seem ok or consensual or desired even, i can't help thinking how wrong it is.

the only stuff i read, is the stuff that points out how wrong and screwy it is (i'm thinking mostly sasuke/itachi here and a particular kakashi fic - though even here there are exceptions, namely bakhos's fic)

i have to admit though, that i'm on the fence here, with the whole thing. on the fence b/c, while i agree shota is bad, i more concerned about those who glorify it (both on non-fandom and fandom lj's) than those who write a more realistic approach. and this whole deletion thing is across the board. and of course, i understand that too, as how can they possibly know, without searching every journal out there that has potentially harmful stuff in it. this is my life, always on the fence, rather an uncomfortable place to be.

and can't really say much about the 'cest stuff, as i both read and write it. it is a kink, though a complete fantasy one obviously, and i've read and heard enough to know and understand (as much as i can) the utter fucked-up-ness of it. and not to leave a list of my kinks (no one needs to know that) but i'll admit to many that are "socially deviant" including but not confined to non-con, bondage, control and so forth and so on. it all comes down to lines and where they are drawn.

and if you feel the need and the desire to speak up and let people know how you feel about what they're writing, well more power to you. it all circles back around to freedom of speech and while you may never convince someone that what they write is wrong, you can at least be comfortable knowing that you said what needed to be said.

kudos for this, even if we don't completely agree, because you're right, intelligent discussion is the best weapon against idocy (and ignorance in my mind) and i love you more for saying it *hugs*

[beachlass.livejournal.com]

"underage non-con is squicky" - Absolutely. And if we're talking about kids and adults - there is no such thing as consensual. Especially adults with control over kids - which is absolutely the case when we're talking about Sasuke and Kakashi, or Ed and Roy...

It's mucky - because there are stories where someone is coming into adulthood - and that is so culturally defined, and plays into our own sexualities and stories and all kinds of stuff. And yet there's some stuff out there that really just raises all the warning flags.

Thanks for talking about it. It's hard, I find, and I'm so glad to have folks like you and the others to work at articulating this with.

[thursday-kat.livejournal.com]

it's mucky - because there are stories where someone is coming into adulthood - and that is so culturally defined, and plays into our own sexualities and stories and all kinds of stuff. And yet there's some stuff out there that really just raises all the warning flags.

this is very true. i have almost no problems reading fic about a 15 yr old and a 30 yr old unlike a fic a fic about a 6 yr old and a 30 yr old.

and man do i love me some roy mustang but i can't do ed/roy (and i've never been a fan of sasuke/kakashi)

i always come away from chats with you thinking about things i may have never thought about before. so i thank you for that :)

[beachlass.livejournal.com]

I think, sometimes, I fall into a fondness for a pairing based on one or two stories by a particular writer - it's not actually the pairing, but the writer(s) I'm fond of...

For instance, some of my favorite stories are Kakashi/Iruka - but I almost never check kakairu. But one of my favorite in progress stories is Roy/Ed.

I find talking with you really thought provoking too. Mutual admiration fest!

And, because it bears repeating - you write some of the most thoughtful porn that plays around with control and submission and trust and respect. It's sexy and makes me think. Best. Combination. Ever.

[thursday-kat.livejournal.com]

ok, i take it back, there is a particular roy/ed story you linked me to and it is yummy :)

totally with you on kakairu (did we friend over kakairu actually??? i can't remember...)

*throws chocolate coated love around to celebrate mutual admiration fest*

And, because it bears repeating - you write some of the most thoughtful porn that plays around with control and submission and trust and respect. It's sexy and makes me think. Best. Combination. Ever.

you can't understand how good that makes me feel. i'll be having warm fuzzies for weeks. *smooches* and hopefully in a few weeks you'll get some neji kimono porn...

[bakkhos.livejournal.com]

Well, since zookitty brought me up, I thought I should probably say something, though I'm not quite sure what would be the most appropriate response. I think I'd fall into the category of Writers Writing the Worst of the Worst. Sometimes I even disturb myself, which is good for writers, I think.

However, I don't think this makes me a morally reprehensible person, though I appreciate your willingness to speak your mind. It does make me consider taking down my fanfic, since in the end, I'd rather not be misinterpreted as a closet criminal.

[beachlass.livejournal.com]

Well. First of all, thanks for stopping by to talk about it. I hope you know that I wouldn't have friended you in the first place if your writing gave me the really bad kind of creeps. There's lots of your Uchiha writing I haven't read - and I appreciate the clarity with which you label it.

There's certainly the "What will people think of me?" factor, which isn't limited to people writing kink or disturbing or underage stuff... for some of us, putting anything sexually explicit feels risky. And I don't think it's a clear line from "a predator got off on this" to "you're contributing to child abuse".

Do you worry about who is reading your stories? (and interesting, because I'm worrying about predators - I initially wrote 'using' rather than 'reading') My recollection (and I don't think its just anti-porn propaganda) is that pedophiles have a building cyclical pattern with child pornography and child abuse; as well as a lot of 'See, other people say it's ok' justification thinking.

Also, on a completely other subject - I think I failed to mention what a fantastic Karin you made at Anime North - great pics.

[bakkhos.livejournal.com]

I actually used to be (maybe still am?) a huge believer in the idea that the legitimization of pedophilia through online communities contributes to it by taking away the fear factor a pedophile might have in committing it. However, I never really included fandom in this category. Fandom can be disturbing at times, but predatory communities like NAMBLA (I think that's its acronym) are a hell of a lot worse.

What is interesting to *me* is knowing who my readers are (some of them anyway), a portion of whom I have met. All normal, law-abiding young women. Some are victims of incest and sexual abuse themselves. The fact that even these girls have responded positively to the Worst of the Worst is definitely food for thought. What do we make of that?

P.S. Thanks on the cosplay thing! Did you go?

....if I may put a word in edgewise... :3

[crazy-toffee.livejournal.com]

The fact that even these girls have responded positively to the Worst of the Worst is definitely food for thought.

Truth is, your writing doesn't give me the disturbing feeling some other fics have. I don't think I can rationalize my argument here, because I'm working on gut-instinct. I don't think you write The Worst of the Worst, because I've read it and it hasn't given me that... impression of something else. It reads as something that should be read and enjoyed as fictional work, whether it's sexual or not.

Other fics, on the other hand, leave me with a vague sense of... I don't know, malignancy? Disturbedness? Depravity? and who am I to use those words anyway XD I can't quite pin it down, but it's there. Maybe this argument makes no sense, but it's the best I can do to explain it. *shrugs*

Re: ....if I may put a word in edgewise... :3

[beachlass.livejournal.com]

I think you've actually really described it well here - it's a gut instinct thing, and thus hard to describe.

[beachlass.livejournal.com]

I think fantasy is a place where we can revisit and re-form hurtful experiences, or just fantasize about boundary-crossing behaviour. Sex, power and identity are all complicated things, and mix together in complicated ways.

And I'm pretty committed to questions, and questioning rather than finding answers and putting them up on a shelf as though they are immutable. I think it is really interesting how women's sexuality plays out in fandom.

I didn't make it to Anime North - as I'm utterly bogged down in real life stuff.

[thursday-kat.livejournal.com]

i'm sorry if my bringing you up made you uncomfortable. it wasn't my intention and i usually hate to "name names" but i obviously forgot my head. you're just an exception to my rules and i love your twisty dark writing. i'd probably read anything from you.

really, really, hope i didn't offend you :/

[bakkhos.livejournal.com]

Not a problem! I just hoped you didn't include me in the category of those legitimately squicky people.

[thursday-kat.livejournal.com]

oh god no!!! you are fab *smooches*

i was just thinking about the fact that sasuke/itachi (yours in particular) is really the only pairing with shota content i read. questions to ponder on boring days at work...